Comments on: Mixing Out of the Box http://lounge.sonicbids.com/719 Tips on using Sonicbids and the Music Biz in general Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:16:52 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Chris McCown http://lounge.sonicbids.com/719/comment-page-1#comment-2823 Chris McCown Wed, 29 Jul 2009 13:53:01 +0000 http://lounge.sonicbids.com/?p=719#comment-2823 It's been awhile since anybody has posted on this thread. I just wanted everybody to know, I just finished recording a project that I wrote, and I am again amazed at what it does to a mix. I'll say it again - I had an in the box mix that actually sounded pretty good. But, I ran it through the D Box and remixed it, and BLAMMO - everything sounded better because of all the extra room each track had to breathe. I could hear the synths coming out of the mix, the drum overhead mics were actually so present in the mix that I had to calm them down, and the guitars, which were quite 'busy' in this particular song, were each distinct and clear. At one point, I had a finger tapping section, with a counter melody, AND the rhythm guitar on top of that. Very difficult to separate even with proper EQ and compression. I was able to separate them a lot easier with the D Box. Enjoy and thanks for reading! It’s been awhile since anybody has posted on this thread. I just wanted everybody to know, I just finished recording a project that I wrote, and I am again amazed at what it does to a mix. I’ll say it again – I had an in the box mix that actually sounded pretty good. But, I ran it through the D Box and remixed it, and BLAMMO – everything sounded better because of all the extra room each track had to breathe. I could hear the synths coming out of the mix, the drum overhead mics were actually so present in the mix that I had to calm them down, and the guitars, which were quite ‘busy’ in this particular song, were each distinct and clear. At one point, I had a finger tapping section, with a counter melody, AND the rhythm guitar on top of that. Very difficult to separate even with proper EQ and compression. I was able to separate them a lot easier with the D Box. Enjoy and thanks for reading!

]]> By: Chris McCown http://lounge.sonicbids.com/719/comment-page-1#comment-805 Chris McCown Thu, 28 May 2009 16:05:15 +0000 http://lounge.sonicbids.com/?p=719#comment-805 Hello Fintan, I am including a link that will take you to a diagram that should help. Basically, you would come from your interface OUTPUTS and that gets the audio stems INTO the summing mixer. Ideally you should have at least eight outputs to use the D Box, or 16 outputs to use the 2 Bus/2 Bus LT. Otherwise, you won't be able to utilize all of the available stems. From there, you would take the summing mixer OUTPUTS, back into a pair of unused inputs on your audio interface. This is your new mix, which you would print to track. In the diagram, the digital DAW input is S/PDIF (or AES) in this case on the D Box, which can be used for a reference track, or the way I have used it, to print a 'before' mix of your project and assign it to the S/PDIF (or AES) out, so you can A/B the in the box mix, and your new summed mix. In any case, that takes audio from the S/PDIF output of your DAW. There is also a CD input on the D Box for an additional reference source. I hope that helps. Here is a link to the diagram: http://www.dangerousmusic.com/pdf/DBoxDiagram_1.2.pdf Thanks Fintan! Hello Fintan, I am including a link that will take you to a diagram that should help. Basically, you would come from your interface OUTPUTS and that gets the audio stems INTO the summing mixer. Ideally you should have at least eight outputs to use the D Box, or 16 outputs to use the 2 Bus/2 Bus LT. Otherwise, you won’t be able to utilize all of the available stems. From there, you would take the summing mixer OUTPUTS, back into a pair of unused inputs on your audio interface. This is your new mix, which you would print to track. In the diagram, the digital DAW input is S/PDIF (or AES) in this case on the D Box, which can be used for a reference track, or the way I have used it, to print a ‘before’ mix of your project and assign it to the S/PDIF (or AES) out, so you can A/B the in the box mix, and your new summed mix. In any case, that takes audio from the S/PDIF output of your DAW. There is also a CD input on the D Box for an additional reference source. I hope that helps. Here is a link to the diagram:

http://www.dangerousmusic.com/pdf/DBoxDiagram_1.2.pdf

Thanks Fintan!

]]> By: Fintan Doran http://lounge.sonicbids.com/719/comment-page-1#comment-666 Fintan Doran Mon, 25 May 2009 05:47:40 +0000 http://lounge.sonicbids.com/?p=719#comment-666 I am in australia nearing the end of a 4 month separation from my Logic Pro based studio. I should be back in the UK in mid june and have been spending a lot of time looking into the idea of summing. I use a motu896hd and have mixed itb with some success, though Chris's article resonated with me. I would appreciate a reply on how things get routed back to the DAW as I have only ever bounced in Logic. Would you just send back to a pair of inputs and have Logic and something like BIAS Peak running as the recorder? PS I have been looking at TL Audio Fat Track, but I do have a Focusrite Vocaltrack Pro and this DBox seems a better choice. I am in australia nearing the end of a 4 month separation from my Logic Pro based studio. I should be back in the UK in mid june and have been spending a lot of time looking into the idea of summing. I use a motu896hd and have mixed itb with some success, though Chris’s article resonated with me. I would appreciate a reply on how things get routed back to the DAW as I have only ever bounced in Logic. Would you just send back to a pair of inputs and have Logic and something like BIAS Peak running as the recorder? PS I have been looking at TL Audio Fat Track, but I do have a Focusrite Vocaltrack Pro and this DBox seems a better choice.

]]> By: Chris McCown http://lounge.sonicbids.com/719/comment-page-1#comment-499 Chris McCown Tue, 12 May 2009 19:09:49 +0000 http://lounge.sonicbids.com/?p=719#comment-499 Hello Gene, so basically what you are saying is that you would rather mix in the box, which is fine - that's your prerogative. Have you ever heard a Dangerous Music 2 Bus, 2 Bus LT, or D Box? If you have and you didn't care for them, that's one thing (although I'm not sure why you wouldn't care for them, because they're amazing). If you haven't, then that is something entirely different. Call it what you will, and I agree with you that "all" mixers are "summing mixers", so call it a "recombiner", or whatever you would like. The fact is, I have heard and used one on many occasions, and I've mixed in the box. I've done both. If the master bus of a DAW does "perfect" math, then why does every DAW sound different? Not dramatically different, but certainly scientifically different. Null tests prove this. Granted, there is fixed point vs. floating point, but DAW's sound different, plain and simple. So I'm not so sure that "perfect" math is necessarily "perfect". As I said before, specs don't mean anything compared to what your ears tell you. Your EARS are the final judge. How many times has someone looked at a parametric EQ plugin and "shaped" it to look a certain way? Analog consoles didn't used to have visual aids to the EQ like the GUI of a parametric EQ plugin has now. The engineer had to use his/her EARS. Have you ever heard of Sterling Sound in NYC? Chris Muth? That's who and what you're slamming. Chris BUILT the gear at Sterling Sound, and is the chief designer of Dangerous Music gear. I find it ironic that literally thousands of albums were done on the gear that Chris Muth built himself, and who has now launched Dangerous Music into the digital audio masses, yet you call it "hype intended to sell you something you really don't need at all." That's a bold statement, considering the company that Dangerous Music keeps. If you accuse me of anything, accuse me of being a Dangerous Music junky, because I am. There IS such a thing as an inferior summing mixer. Dangerous products don't fall into that category though. Folks, don't take MY word for it, do your own research. I am not alone in this. You will certainly find people on both sides of this same coin, but having mixed for a number of years on both analog and digital equipment, I'm sticking to my original article. It wasn't a "subtle" difference - it was HUGE. Gene, if you are happy mixing in the box, then that's fantastic! Plenty of great mixes have been done in the box. As for me, I won't turn in a final mix until it goes through a Dangerous summing mixer. Hello Gene, so basically what you are saying is that you would rather mix in the box, which is fine – that’s your prerogative. Have you ever heard a Dangerous Music 2 Bus, 2 Bus LT, or D Box? If you have and you didn’t care for them, that’s one thing (although I’m not sure why you wouldn’t care for them, because they’re amazing). If you haven’t, then that is something entirely different. Call it what you will, and I agree with you that “all” mixers are “summing mixers”, so call it a “recombiner”, or whatever you would like. The fact is, I have heard and used one on many occasions, and I’ve mixed in the box. I’ve done both. If the master bus of a DAW does “perfect” math, then why does every DAW sound different? Not dramatically different, but certainly scientifically different. Null tests prove this. Granted, there is fixed point vs. floating point, but DAW’s sound different, plain and simple. So I’m not so sure that “perfect” math is necessarily “perfect”. As I said before, specs don’t mean anything compared to what your ears tell you. Your EARS are the final judge. How many times has someone looked at a parametric EQ plugin and “shaped” it to look a certain way? Analog consoles didn’t used to have visual aids to the EQ like the GUI of a parametric EQ plugin has now. The engineer had to use his/her EARS. Have you ever heard of Sterling Sound in NYC? Chris Muth? That’s who and what you’re slamming. Chris BUILT the gear at Sterling Sound, and is the chief designer of Dangerous Music gear. I find it ironic that literally thousands of albums were done on the gear that Chris Muth built himself, and who has now launched Dangerous Music into the digital audio masses, yet you call it “hype intended to sell you something you really don’t need at all.” That’s a bold statement, considering the company that Dangerous Music keeps. If you accuse me of anything, accuse me of being a Dangerous Music junky, because I am. There IS such a thing as an inferior summing mixer. Dangerous products don’t fall into that category though. Folks, don’t take MY word for it, do your own research. I am not alone in this. You will certainly find people on both sides of this same coin, but having mixed for a number of years on both analog and digital equipment, I’m sticking to my original article. It wasn’t a “subtle” difference – it was HUGE. Gene, if you are happy mixing in the box, then that’s fantastic! Plenty of great mixes have been done in the box. As for me, I won’t turn in a final mix until it goes through a Dangerous summing mixer.

]]> By: Chris McCown http://lounge.sonicbids.com/719/comment-page-1#comment-498 Chris McCown Mon, 11 May 2009 20:28:51 +0000 http://lounge.sonicbids.com/?p=719#comment-498 Paul, thank you for leaving a reply. I would be happy to discuss routing options with you, and explain how to get the final mix from the D Box. Congratulations on picking one up! You can reach me at 800 222 4700 ext. 1328. I am usually in until 6pm EST. Give me a call, I'm happy to help. Paul, thank you for leaving a reply. I would be happy to discuss routing options with you, and explain how to get the final mix from the D Box. Congratulations on picking one up! You can reach me at 800 222 4700 ext. 1328. I am usually in until 6pm EST. Give me a call, I’m happy to help.

]]> By: Gene James http://lounge.sonicbids.com/719/comment-page-1#comment-493 Gene James Mon, 11 May 2009 14:07:44 +0000 http://lounge.sonicbids.com/?p=719#comment-493 OMG! I expect better of Sweetwater, but I guess it's about sales, not doing the right thing. Can an analog mixer sound different from a digital one? You bet! Is digital better or worse? Much better. In Chris' case, if he can REALLY hear the difference, it's only because he's managed to drive one of them into overload, or because one is an exceptionally bad design. At the end of the day, properly used, a digital mixer introduces far less distortion than an analog one. IF you know how to use it, a 24-but DAW has FAR mre overhead than any analog mixer. That said, I've seen plenty of guys manage to drive their digital stuff into clipping... because they don't know how to use it. Most will never get it. Both are "summing mixers", in fact I've never seen a mixer that is otherwise. The term, BTW, derives from the analog design of a "summing bus" - which approaches, but never attains, a mathematical sum of it's inputs. In the digital domain, the sum is essentially perfect. A professional engineer will understand that these arguments are immaterial. The low levels of coloration introduced by good modern mixers are insignificant compared to the high (3-5%) levels of distortion introduced by the electromechanical elements such as microphones and loudspeakers. This is just hype intended to sell you something you really don't need at all! OMG! I expect better of Sweetwater, but I guess it’s about sales, not doing the right thing.

Can an analog mixer sound different from a digital one? You bet! Is digital better or worse? Much better. In Chris’ case, if he can REALLY hear the difference, it’s only because he’s managed to drive one of them into overload, or because one is an exceptionally bad design. At the end of the day, properly used, a digital mixer introduces far less distortion than an analog one. IF you know how to use it, a 24-but DAW has FAR mre overhead than any analog mixer. That said, I’ve seen plenty of guys manage to drive their digital stuff into clipping… because they don’t know how to use it. Most will never get it.

Both are “summing mixers”, in fact I’ve never seen a mixer that is otherwise. The term, BTW, derives from the analog design of a “summing bus” – which approaches, but never attains, a mathematical sum of it’s inputs. In the digital domain, the sum is essentially perfect.

A professional engineer will understand that these arguments are immaterial. The low levels of coloration introduced by good modern mixers are insignificant compared to the high (3-5%) levels of distortion introduced by the electromechanical elements such as microphones and loudspeakers.

This is just hype intended to sell you something you really don’t need at all!

]]> By: Paul http://lounge.sonicbids.com/719/comment-page-1#comment-496 Paul Thu, 07 May 2009 23:50:17 +0000 http://lounge.sonicbids.com/?p=719#comment-496 Hi Chris, Thanks for the illuminating article. I have just picked up a D-Box, and will use it with Logic Pro 8. Any chance you might be able to describe the routing paths to get in and out of a Logic project, finally exporting the D-box mix to the desktop (without "bouncing")? thanks Paul Hi Chris,
Thanks for the illuminating article. I have just picked up a D-Box, and will use it with Logic Pro 8. Any chance you might be able to describe the routing paths to get in and out of a Logic project, finally exporting the D-box mix to the desktop (without “bouncing”)?
thanks
Paul

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